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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5!? Can it be playable?

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  • 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5!? Can it be playable?

    Can this be playable? Is it a serious alternative to the Gruenfeld/King's Indian systems? You know in Greece we call this the Dublin Defence but it is not called like that really. Is it a serious alternative to the Gruenfeld/King's Indian?

    Lines to consider:
    4.e3
    4.Nf3
    4.g3?!
    4.d5(main line in my opinion)
    4.dxc5!? (and the bishop cannot be fianchettoed)

    In my opinion, this is a serious & interesting alternative to the Gruenfeld system: Dublin Defence,Modern Benoni, Semi-Benoni or how it is called)

    (PS: I would prefer Dublin-Greek Variation of the Modern Benoni!!!)
    Last edited by Roeczak; 06-27-2012, 11:57 AM.
    Scared of the Sicilian?
    Play the ALAPIN, 2.c3!

  • #2
    This is the Benoni Defense and it was popularized by Tahl in the 1950s and 60s. Fischer, Kasparov, Nunn and de Firmian played it but conservative GMs don't, feeling it's too risky.

    Benoni Defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chess Openings- Benoni Defense - YouTube
    Chess Lesson: Benoni Defence - YouTube
    Chess Openings- Benoni Defense - YouTube
    The Hoppers

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    • #3
      this is not the benoni
      old benoni=1.d4 c5
      czech benoni=1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5
      modern benoni=1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5
      dublin defence=1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5!?
      Scared of the Sicilian?
      Play the ALAPIN, 2.c3!

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes it is Benoni defence as aforementioned. The old one goes like this, by the way:

        1.d4 c5

        Going back to your question, here are the possible lines:

        1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Bd3 d5

        1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.e4 Qa5 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Nc6

        1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5 4.g3 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Nc6 6.Qd2 d6 7.Bg2 Bg7

        1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 b5 5.cxb5 d6 6.Nf3 Bg7

        1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 c5 4.dxc5 Bg7 5.e4 Qa5 6.Bd3 O-O

        Each line here is rather sharp, the game certainly won't resemble closed 1.d4 games.

        EDIT: I wrote my post before seeing yours, Roeczak. It is not the Benoni then, but it plays like the Benoni. Odd.
        Last edited by stachu71; 06-27-2012, 12:02 PM.
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        • #5
          I can’t find the “Dublin Defense” in ECO. What ideas for white/black are there that would make this move order of any independent significance from the likely transposition into the Fianchetto Variation, Modern Benoni, Taimanov Variation, Four Pawns Attack or Classical Benoni?
          The Hoppers

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          • #6
            I think it's funny sometimes how people try to classify move order differences as completely different openings. This is a fine example. Everything is here is basically a Benoni. You can call it ANYTHING YOU WANT. You can call it the I play with chickens while you sleep opening, and you would be correct. As long as you do two things..

            1. You remember what you called it so that you can write it down.

            2. You understand the plans and motif's in said move orders.

            The Nf6, g6, c5 complex is technically under the King's indian (Not alternative) Which the Benoni or Old benoni was considered a variation of. They are directly related. And it is beneficial to think of them as directly transpositional. The move order presented allows white to avoid a gambit if he wants to, which is also a variation of the Benoni. Which is called the Benko or Volga Gambit. They are all RELATED. And openings CAN and do have multiple names.

            Now is it playable? Of course it is. You just have to like it and commit to it, and then understand it. Most people just memorize lines and don't understand why. And then think they understand why.. They don't! If they don't understand why, they will get positions they don't like and then blame the opening.

            Stop blaming openings, and start learning them correctly.;-)
            Last edited by CookieMonster; 06-27-2012, 07:21 PM.
            I am a proud supporter of the GM Igor Smirnov way of teaching. If you would like to see the system and want to try out his teaching methods please follow this link: http://chess-teacher.com/affiliates/...?id=1517_2_3_1

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            • #7
              Course this is playable. There are tons of ways it can go, though, so it’s good to know a few lines and the goals of the opening.

              BTW, after d5 and Bg7, it's the Czech Benoni.
              Alexander Alekhine is my chess hero.

              An eerie chess short story: The Empty Chair

              My newest chess story: Gamble: A Supernatural Chess Tale

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              • #8
                ALthough last I checked, the benoni was under a bit of a cloud in the lines where white plays f4 before Nf3, and combines it with Bb5+. Been a while, so I don't know if that's still the case, but for a while it was considered almost unplayable.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                  ALthough last I checked, the benoni was under a bit of a cloud in the lines where white plays f4 before Nf3, and combines it with Bb5+. Been a while, so I don't know if that's still the case, but for a while it was considered almost unplayable.
                  "Unplayable" at the top levels, you mean. It can be a rip-snortin' good time down here with us mortals.

                  Essentially, any opening that's been developed enough that there's at least one full book devoted to it can be "playable" at the club level.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NewbieWoodpusher View Post
                    "Unplayable" at the top levels, you mean. It can be a rip-snortin' good time down here with us mortals.

                    Essentially, any opening that's been developed enough that there's at least one full book devoted to it can be "playable" at the club level.
                    I like this comment. Good one.
                    I am a proud supporter of the GM Igor Smirnov way of teaching. If you would like to see the system and want to try out his teaching methods please follow this link: http://chess-teacher.com/affiliates/...?id=1517_2_3_1

                    If you have questions/want a tutor inquire with messages. I am going to rewrite my web page and it will also go here.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
                      ALthough last I checked, the benoni was under a bit of a cloud in the lines where white plays f4 before Nf3, and combines it with Bb5+. Been a while, so I don't know if that's still the case, but for a while it was considered almost unplayable.
                      The Taimanov is a pain. Some players play 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 to avoid this. Although 3 Nc3 this--but 3 ... Bb4 is the Nimzo-indian, which aggressive players like much more than the 3 ... b6.

                      Although 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6 7 e4 Bg7 8 Bb5+:
                      7 ... Nfd7 is now considered the move, and I believe they play 8 a4 after that and White does very well.
                      But 7 ... Nbd7 8 e5 dxe5 9 fxe5 Nh5 10 e6 Qh4+ can get very sharp and messy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NewbieWoodpusher View Post
                        "Unplayable" at the top levels, you mean.
                        Yeah but I will bet that if players at club level of equal strength play many matches, the players who does not use benoni will have more win than their counter parts..

                        The thing is a slightly weaker club player, has more chance to beat a stronger club player if that slightly stronger club player chose a benoni, than a slightly weaker club player who chose benoni against the stronger club player.

                        Even in club level, it's easier to handle the white side against benoni..

                        But of course at 1200 below level, it does not matter if players choose benoni or not, because at this level usually players lack the positional and tactical knowledge on how to exploit structure dis advantage, and most at this level will blunder(positionally and tactically).
                        Last edited by ryan_c; 06-28-2012, 08:40 AM.
                        " Deep calculation is not what distinguishes the champions. It does not matter how far ahead you see if you don't understand what you are looking at. When I contemplate my move, I first must consider all the elements in the position so that i can develop a strategy and develop intermediate objectives"

                        -- Garry Kasparov--

                        "Tactics must be guided by strategy"

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                        • #13
                          Yep. Exactly that, Ryan. Well said.
                          Alexander Alekhine is my chess hero.

                          An eerie chess short story: The Empty Chair

                          My newest chess story: Gamble: A Supernatural Chess Tale

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                          • #14
                            FM Jan Mathijsen played a game on FICS with that line and won agianst a 1900
                            Scared of the Sicilian?
                            Play the ALAPIN, 2.c3!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ryan_c View Post
                              Yeah but I will bet that if players at club level of equal strength play many matches, the players who does not use benoni will have more win than their counter parts..

                              The thing is a slightly weaker club player, has more chance to beat a stronger club player if that slightly stronger club player chose a benoni, than a slightly weaker club player who chose benoni against the stronger club player.

                              Even in club level, it's easier to handle the white side against benoni..

                              But of course at 1200 below level, it does not matter if players choose benoni or not, because at this level usually players lack the positional and tactical knowledge on how to exploit structure dis advantage, and most at this level will blunder(positionally and tactically).
                              You have a much more liberal definition of "unplayable" than I do.
                              Returning to Chess blog
                              ICC: ELandes
                              Chess.com: Boogada
                              Playchess: PDXDude

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