Hi

I am wanting to look at 4.Qxd4 lines in Philidor and have a stem opening here but no actual games with this stem. I have looked for them on www.chesslive and my own Fritz9 Database unsuccessfully.
The stem I am looking at is:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 a6 5. Be3 Nc6 6. Qd2 Nf6 7. Nc3 Be7
8. h3 O-O 9. O-O-O Nd7 10. Nd4 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 c6 12. Ne2 c5 13. Be3 b5 14.
Nf4 Nb6*

Does anyone have any actual games they can refer me to in this stem or close to it please?
Anyway if anyone has any comment on the 4.Qxd4 lines I would be interested.Many thanks

I've been playing 5. Bf4 against a6 (a bit of a rarity at my board).

I'm a learner and don't know much about variations, but this looks more like Petroff's Def to me. You move ur Queen early and take the Pawn.
1. e4-e5, 2. Nf3-Nf6, 3. d4-exd4, 4. e5-Ne4, 5. Qxd4-d5, 6. exd6(en passant)-Nxd6 and so on...


The Philidors Defence that I've tried is:-
1.e4-e5, 2. Nf3-d6, 3. d4-Nf6, 4. Nc3-Nbd7 5. Bc4-Be7, 6. 0-0 - 0-0, 7. Qe2-c6, 8. a4 and so on...

Hi Neo

Thanks for your post
Your first line is Petrovs which seems like the modern variation to me (3. d4)
C43 I think.
See Fischer vs German 1962 1-0
and more up to date Shirov plays a line of it-
Shirov vs Bologan 2007 1-0
Shirov vs Adams 2007 1-0

I don't know much about this line so I will investigate it a little more!

Now to the Philidor. Again I don't know much about the line you give as I have mainly been playing 4.Qxd4 instead. I will look at my Fritz9 DB and see wht games there are. I did look at ChessGames.com Online Chess Games Database and they give 61 games in their DB for this line and over 620 for one or two moves before, so while not wildly common it is quite well known.
A recent game I found in a similar line is Ivanchuk vs Tukmakov 2007 1-0 -here are the moves:
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. a4 c6 8. Ba2 b6 9. Qe2 Qc7 10. Rd1 Bb7 11. Nh4 exd4 12. Rxd4 g6 13. Bg5 Rfe8 14. Rad1 a6 15. Qf3 Ne5 16. Qf4 Nh5 17. Qc1 Bf8 18. f4 Nd7 19. b4 Kg7 20. f5 Ne5 21. Bh6+ Kh8 22. Bxf8 Rxf8 23. Rxd6 Rad8 24. Qd2 Rxd6 25. Qxd6 Qxd6 26. Rxd6 Kg7 27. fxg6 hxg6 28. Nf3 Ng4 29. Bb3 Nf4 30. g3 Nh5 31. Rd7 Bc8 32. Rc7 Nhf6 33. Rxc6 Bb7 34. Rxb6 Bxe4 35. Nxe4 Nxe4 36. Rb7 Rd8 37. Rxf7+ Kh6 38. c4 1-0
This is quite an instructional game I think to show how to defeat the tough Philidor defence.

Now a word to Perseus about 5.Bf4 vs a6 rather than Be3. I don't see this makes a great difference over 5.Be3. It has been suggested that 4...a6 is a bad black move losing a tempi, but I find it tough to play against!

Thanks for replies on this. I will keep looking at these lines and hopefully learning how to play bettermoves!?

There are seven games in the known database:
of the seven the following three go to 8.h3:
Unlike some of the other games, at least one below was played by a GM:
Velimirovic, Dragoljub
First Name
Dragoljub
Last Name
Velimirovic


Nationality
Yugoslavia
Birthday Title
12.05.1942 GM
[Event "Bristol op"]
[Site "Bristol"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Hardy,Roger"]
[Black "Phillips,Roy Jean Noel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C41"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Qd2 Nf6 7.Nc3 Be7 8.h3 0-0
9.0-0-0 b5 10.Bd3 Nb4 11.Nd4 c5 12.Nf5 Bxf5 13.exf5 d5 14.Bg5 d4 15.Bxf6 Bxf6 16.Ne4 Nxa2+
17.Kb1 Nb4 18.Nxc5 Qa5 19.Qf4 Qa2+ 20.Kc1 Qa1+ 21.Kd2 Qxb2 22.Ne4 Rac8 23.Nxf6+ gxf6 24.Qg3+ Kh8
25.Rc1 Rfe8 26.Qf3 Rc3 0-1

[Event "YUG-chT"]
[Site "Herceg Novi"]
[Date "2001.05.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Velimirovic,Dragoljub"]
[Black "Nevednichy,Vladislav"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C41"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Qd2 Nf6 7.Nc3 Be7 8.h3 0-0
9.g4 b5 10.g5 Nd7 11.0-0-0 Re8 12.h4 Nde5 13.Nxe5 dxe5 14.Nd5 Bd6 15.h5 Nd4 16.h6 c6
17.g6 fxg6 18.f4 cxd5 19.fxe5 Bxe5 20.Bxd4 Bg4 21.Be2 Bxe2 22.Qxe2 Bxd4 23.Rxd4 Qg5+ 24.Kb1 gxh6
25.Qf3 Rxe4 26.Rxe4 dxe4 27.Qxe4 Rf8 28.Qe6+ Kg7 29.Qxa6 h5 30.a4 bxa4 31.Qxa4 Qd5 32.Re1 Ra8
33.Qh4 Qa2+ 34.Kc1 Qa1+ 35.Kd2 Qxb2 36.Re7+ Kh8 37.Rd7 Qe5 38.Rd8+ Rxd8+ 39.Qxd8+ Kg7 40.c4 Qb2+
0-1

[Event "Bled ol (Men)"]
[Site "Bled"]
[Date "2002.10.26"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Sutovsky,Emil"]
[Black "Nevednichy,Vladislav"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C41"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.Be3 Nc6 6.Qd2 Nf6 7.Nc3 Be7 8.h3 0-0
9.0-0-0 Nd7 10.Nd4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 c6 12.Ne2 c5 13.Be3 b5 14.Nf4 Nb6 15.Nh5 Re8 16.Bf4 g6
17.Ng3 Ra7 18.Be2 d5 19.exd5 Rd7 20.d6 Bxd6 21.Bxd6 Re6 22.Qf4 Rdxd6 23.Rxd6 Qxd6 24.Qxd6 Rxd6
25.Ne4 Re6 26.Bf3 Re5 27.Rd1 Kg7 28.Nd6 Bd7 29.b3 h5 30.Nb7 c4 31.bxc4 bxc4 32.Rd6 Re6
33.Kd2 Kf6 34.Rd4 Ke7 35.Nc5 Rd6 36.Rxd6 Kxd6 37.Nxa6 h4 38.Kc3 Bb5 39.Bb7 Bxa6 40.Bxa6 Kc5
41.Bb7 g5 42.a3 f6 43.Kd2 Kd4 44.c3+ Ke5 45.Bc6 Kd6 46.Be8 Nd5 47.g3 f5 48.gxh4 gxh4
49.Bf7 Nf4 50.Ke3 Ke5 51.a4 Nxh3 52.a5 f4+ 53.Ke2 Kd6 54.Bxc4 Ng5 55.a6 Kc6 56.Bd5+ Kb6
57.Bb7 Ka7 58.Kf1 Ne6 59.Kg2 Nc5 60.Kh3 Na4 61.Kxh4 Nxc3 62.Kg4 Nd1 63.f3 1-0

The a6 move is a waste on black's part. But it doesn't help white in a very direct way. What it does (that sort of bothers me) is that it prevents a transposition into Old Steinitz territory of the Ruy Lopez (with exd4-Qxd4 Bb5), that isn't some major victory on black's part. On the subject of Bf4, it's a wee bit more enterprising I feel. I think I've played Bg5 as well once, but it remains a rarity as the Philidor isn't that frequent a visitor.

Thanks Malbase

7 games in your database is not many to form solid advice from but it forms a start to consider and investigate further from.I thought this line was more common but it seems not so.Thanks for your reply and help.

NB As an aside point, several blitz Philidors I have played recently(with Qxd4)have been classified by the software as Ruy Lopez Old Steinitz variation(C62)-here is one example:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Bxc6 Bxc6 7. Nc3 Nf6 8. Bg5 Be7 9. e5 Nd7 10. Bxe7 Qxe7 11. O-O-O O-O-O 12. exd6 cxd6 13. Rhe1 Qf6 14. Qxa7 Bxf3 15. gxf3 Qg5+ 16. Rd2 Rde8 17. Ne4 Qh6 18. Kd1 d5 19. Rxd5 Qc6 20. Nd6+ Kc7 21. Nxe8+ Rxe8 22. Qa5+ Kb8 23. Rxe8+ Qc8 24. Rxc8+ Kxc8 25. Qa8+ Kc7 26. Qa5+ Nb6 27. Rc5+ Kd6 28. Qxb6+ Ke7 29. Qxb7+ Kf6 30. Qb6+ Ke7 31. Qc6 f6 32. Qb5 Kf7 33. Rc7+ Kg6 34. Qd7 Kg5 35. Qxg7+ Kf5 36. Rc5+ Kf4 37. Qxf6# 1-0