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06-01-2007, 06:52 PM
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#11 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Originally Posted by OoJaZoO
LoL, of course if a GM plays it or If Im a GM its good. The point is there isnt any GM's on here so Im reccomending not to play it respectively considering the average level here. Any opening a GM plays will be better than if a 1600 plays it thats the whole point. Im reccomending not to play it for the people asking "if its good"
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Up to a certain level it doesn't matter whether an opening is considered good by the top Grandmasters. The top Grandmasters don't consdier the Bird as a serious try to give white an edge, but that doesn't mean a 1500 player will get worse results with playing the Bird. On the contrary, I believe that playing a decent but less-known opening like the Bird is a good way for average players to avoid the heaps of theory, have a good surprise weapon, and still stand a chance against the stronger players. If black's unprepared, he can easily lose against the Bird as well.
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06-01-2007, 07:02 PM
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#12 (permalink)
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Posts: 2
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Originally Posted by Phobetor
I know Everyman Chess has a book on the Bird Opening. But I guess you already knew that... 
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Yes I knew everyman chess book..it's very interesting..but i'm searching new games for database...thanks for reply
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06-01-2007, 07:07 PM
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#13 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Grandmaster Henrik Danielsen also plays the Bird Opening, and he made some instructional video's about his "Polar Bear System", which are free to view on YouTube ( this link should give you most of his videos)
And if you're interested on knowing more on the (his?) Polar Bear System or the Bird Opening in general, I think he gives chess lessons online too. His name on ICC is "H-Danielsen".
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06-22-2007, 02:56 PM
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#14 (permalink)
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Posts: 19
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Staunton Gambit?Dutch
Originally Posted by OoJaZoO
Birds opening is garbage dont play it, Its the kind of openings that you play to strive for some iniative but black always has a defense that guarantees equality.
For the Dutch Defense, after d4, f5, you can play e4 which is a pretty enjoyable line that gives white a good game. The continuation is usually fxe4,nc3,nf6 bg5.
If they play d5 you can play bxf6 then qh5 check next move picking up the D pawn.
Try it out its fun
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What you are suggesting here is the Staunton gambit. I DO play the Dutch regularly as black and I score heavily against the Staunton. If white plays well will he actually get an equal position. Christiansen said " Black plays the Dutch to win. And if White is nice enough to give Black a pawn, Black should take it, say "thank you", surpress his smile of delight, and roll white off the board. Botvinnik did not think that white gained any advantage in this variation.
The gambit starts d4 f5, e4 fxe4, Nc3 Nf6, and W already has to take a decision: either 4)f3 or 4) Bg5
After f3 Black does NOT take the pawn but normally plays d5, often followed by Bf5 making it more difficult for W to regain his pawn unless he is prepared to compromise his position.
Bg5 is better and Black has options but Nc6 seems to be best. Frequently in this line White plays Bxf6, conceding the bishop pair, in order to get his pawn back. A sample line could (after 4) ...Nc6) run as follows: d5 Ne5, Qd4 (Qe2 is newer and may be interesting) Nf7, Bxf6 exf6, Nxe4 f5, Ng3 g6, 0-0-0 Bh6+, f4 0-0, Nf3 Bg7 (or b5!), Qd2 b5, with a sharp game which seems to favour Black. Frequently Black moves his N to d6 in this line.
Bird's opening is not garbage but in my opinion black would be prudent to not play f4 d5 as W has a reversed dutch with a move in hand. When Larsen played f4 against Fischer the maestro responded with c5, which after e4 trannsposes to the Grand Prix attack against the Sicilian.
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06-22-2007, 08:15 PM
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#15 (permalink)
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Posts: 1,410
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You have to stay on your toes as black in the Staunton gambit 1. d4 f5 2. e4. White can (if black allows it) get some vicious attacks going. If black knows what he's doing, he gets equality or better depending on what white does.
If you want to combat the Dutch, I would really advise looking at the Fianchetto variation; or, if you're the attacking type, go for 2. Nc3 and development.
On other anti-Dutch lines:
2. Bg5 Nf6 3. Bxf6 exf6 is sort of like a Trompowsky attack; and not even a better one than the actual Trompowsky attack. Lines other than 3. Bxf6 aren't critical since they transpose.
2. h3, 2.g4, I don't believe in them. Premature attempts at undermining and attacking. Neither side has pieces to defend or attack, black will benefit the most.
The mainline stuff is much better regardless.
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White:
- Ruy Lopez
- Sicilian Defense: Chekhover variation, Rossolimo variation, Delayed Alapin variation
- French Defense: Bogo-Winawer variation, Classical variation 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7
- Pirc Defense: Byrne variation
Black:
- Ruy Lopez: Modern Steinitz variation
- Two Knights Defense: Fritz variation, Ulvestadt variation
- King's Gambit: Falkbeer Countergambit: Nimzowitsch variation
- Indian Defense: Nimzo-Indian Defense, Queen's Indian Defense
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06-28-2007, 05:39 PM
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#16 (permalink)
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Posts: 45
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From my experience, the Bird's System is a decent opening at club level, and can be highly tricky for people who don't know the lines, but of course at a higher level it shouldn't be a threat. I'd say it's similar to the Grand Prix Attack but with more distance.
The Dutch defence: I have also played tis a lot at club level, clearly it's weaker than the Bird's....
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06-28-2007, 06:48 PM
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#17 (permalink)
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Posts: 1,410
Thanked 77 Times in 74 Posts
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Originally Posted by Chess-o-Mattic
From my experience, the Bird's System is a decent opening at club level, and can be highly tricky for people who don't know the lines, but of course at a higher level it shouldn't be a threat. I'd say it's similar to the Grand Prix Attack but with more distance.
The Dutch defence: I have also played tis a lot at club level, clearly it's weaker than the Bird's....
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No kidding?
The Dutch defense is a black defense to the most solid first move on book, 1. d4.
The Bird is a white opening and offers white his usual advantage resulting from having moved first, reduced by the fact that 1. f4 weakens some things here and there.
Alekhine, Tartakower, Euwe, Beliavsky, Bareev, Malaniuk, Kramnik, Vasiukov, Vallejo Pons, Susan Polgar.. I don't feel I'm in bad company using the Dutch every now and then...
The list of people using the Bird in my database is far less impressive. I don't think I can make my point any clearer.
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White:
- Ruy Lopez
- Sicilian Defense: Chekhover variation, Rossolimo variation, Delayed Alapin variation
- French Defense: Bogo-Winawer variation, Classical variation 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7
- Pirc Defense: Byrne variation
Black:
- Ruy Lopez: Modern Steinitz variation
- Two Knights Defense: Fritz variation, Ulvestadt variation
- King's Gambit: Falkbeer Countergambit: Nimzowitsch variation
- Indian Defense: Nimzo-Indian Defense, Queen's Indian Defense
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06-28-2007, 07:53 PM
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#18 (permalink)
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Posts: 56
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Who was the GM who regularly played the Dutch, and when someone suggested he played the Bird, commented, " I don't know. That extra move might hurt me."?
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06-28-2007, 08:21 PM
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#19 (permalink)
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Posts: 1,410
Thanked 77 Times in 74 Posts
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Originally Posted by DoctorD
Who was the GM who regularly played the Dutch, and when someone suggested he played the Bird, commented, " I don't know. That extra move might hurt me."?
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I don't know, but I'd love to add it to my list of quotes. It's true though, in chess the move is everything.
There are some similarities between the From's gambit in the Bird (1. f4 e5) and the Staunton gambit in the Dutch (1. d4 f5 2. e4). In the From's gambit, you can play 1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 as black. You can't play a proper From's gambit reversed against the Dutch because the d-pawn is already on d4 making d3 an obvious impossibility.
The only Bird defense (with white) I really like is the From's gambit declined, otherwise known as the King's gambit.
__________________
White:
- Ruy Lopez
- Sicilian Defense: Chekhover variation, Rossolimo variation, Delayed Alapin variation
- French Defense: Bogo-Winawer variation, Classical variation 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7
- Pirc Defense: Byrne variation
Black:
- Ruy Lopez: Modern Steinitz variation
- Two Knights Defense: Fritz variation, Ulvestadt variation
- King's Gambit: Falkbeer Countergambit: Nimzowitsch variation
- Indian Defense: Nimzo-Indian Defense, Queen's Indian Defense
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06-29-2007, 05:22 AM
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#20 (permalink)
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Posts: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
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The Bird's Opening is a fine opening for white, it's an aggressive flank opening, giving white decent chances. In most of the main line white can maintain a small edge with best play, going into a generally very complex and interesting midde game. For some basic over views of the lines and ideas please check out either my posts at:
The Bird's Opening (1. f4) , Chess openings: Bird's Opening (A02) , The chess games of Henry Edward Bird to name a few. It has been used with success by no less a player than a player than Larsen (switched to the Nizo-Larsen attack because he could force a q-side fianchetto and disliked the recipe variatio (which is now known to force black to make a pawn sacrifice without adequete compensation)), Tartakower, Nimzovitch, etc. just to name a few. It's been used by WC's successfully, beaten WC's successfully, etc. In short, it's a perfectly fine opening, merely unfortunately suffers from bad PR.
As to the original poster, a good place to start learning about the Bird Leningrad is VideoChess.Net, run by GM Henrik Danielsen who has used it with much success, and nearly exclusively plays the Leningrad Bird with white (and the Leningrad Dutch as black btw) which he refers to as "the Polar Bear System". Basically, in the Leningrad Bird, white fianchettos kingside, putting his bishop on the a8-h1 diagonal, this strengthens his f-pawn (by playing g3) puts his bishop on an excellent diagonal, secures his king (he doesn't need to worry about the a7-g1 diagonal as his king is quite safe on h1) and prepares a preferable e4 pawn advance (after moving the white knight on f3 to usually h4), it is worth noting that in this system after white gets e4 in, a pawn sacrifice by f5 is usually in the air, and is very deadly (check Danielsen's games for some examples of that). For an excellent book on the Bird's Opening, theres Timothy Taylor's Bird's Opening.
<Perseus> white is +/- against the From in all variations except the full mestrel which is += respectively. In addition, white can also decline with a pleasent position (here's a website about it http://www.geocities.com/drawyah/FromGD) or simply transpose into the King's Gambit if he wishes.
<scrubber> Against 1...c5, white can play 2.e4 transposing immediatley into a Grand Prix Sicilian, however seeing as how black scores well with 2...d5 i would advise against it. The best way to play against 1...c5 is indeed to eventually play e4 setting up the strong e4+f4 pawn duo, but it's advisable to play moves like Nf3, d3 first, and if black plays d5 before you play e4 you are simply back to the main line.
Glad to see there's some discussion about Bird's Opening going on here, any other questions or comments feel free to ask.
P.S. Hey Phobetor good to see you, thanks for telling me about this place.
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