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05-12-2007, 08:25 PM
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#11 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Originally Posted by Perseus
There are some improvements for white, I don't care for the system he used but that's another issue entirely. It wasn't the opening that won black the game at any rate.
Also, to some (at least to me) Topalov has never been a legitimate world champion.
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The opening didn't win him the game, but it certainly didn't lose him the game either. And that's the most important point; Normal Scandinavian games with 3... Qa5 should lose for black if white's just as good or better than black.
And that he ahs never been a legitimate world champion is just to you I guess. He certainly worked harder for it and earned it more than the way Kramnik got his title now.
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05-14-2007, 02:57 PM
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#12 (permalink)
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Posts: 19
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You cannot play bad lines!
Originally Posted by Phobetor
I like that last quote of Tartakower 
Like I said above, the whole Scandinavian is "refuted", so why go for the boring, bad-for-black lines if there's a dubious line that could very well surprise opponents, and gives black good chances if white's not prepared 
And yea, I think it transposes after 5. Nf3 Nc6 when white will probably take on e5 after all.
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You really cannot play a line that you know has a hole in! A number of openings are slightly better for white, mostly by dint of him moving first. This is acceptable as black often can, by reasonable play, equalise the position. To play something that you KNOW loses is lunacy.
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05-14-2007, 07:03 PM
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#13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by scrubber
You really cannot play a line that you know has a hole in! A number of openings are slightly better for white, mostly by dint of him moving first. This is acceptable as black often can, by reasonable play, equalise the position. To play something that you KNOW loses is lunacy.
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Like I said above, the refutation is:
5. dxe5 Nc6 6. Nf3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Bg4 8. a3 Nd4! 9. Bb5+!! c6! 10. O-O!! Bxf3! 11. axb4! Bxd1 12. bxa5 Bxc2 13. Ba4!
Up to 8. a3 I guess strong white players could make it up during the game. After that, especially for move 9. Bb5+ you really need to be of GM level to find it during the game, or you have to know about this line. SO if you use it as a surprise weapon (when white will unlikely be prepared and know this line) the chance is very small that he refutes it. And even if he does, after 13. Ba4 black isn't "lost" yet. He's (slightly) worse, but possibly equalizable if white messes up.
I wouldn't use it as a base of my repertoire, but occasionally as a surprise weapon, I think it's playable without risks.
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05-14-2007, 07:36 PM
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#14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Phobetor
Like I said above, the refutation is:
5. dxe5 Nc6 6. Nf3 Bb4 7. Bd2 Bg4 8. a3 Nd4! 9. Bb5+!! c6! 10. O-O!! Bxf3! 11. axb4! Bxd1 12. bxa5 Bxc2 13. Ba4!
Up to 8. a3 I guess strong white players could make it up during the game. After that, especially for move 9. Bb5+ you really need to be of GM level to find it during the game, or you have to know about this line. SO if you use it as a surprise weapon (when white will unlikely be prepared and know this line) the chance is very small that he refutes it. And even if he does, after 13. Ba4 black isn't "lost" yet. He's (slightly) worse, but possibly equalizable if white messes up.
I wouldn't use it as a base of my repertoire, but occasionally as a surprise weapon, I think it's playable without risks.
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Hmm, there is a question I would ask though. If black doesn't get his opening choice refuted, will he still be struggling for a draw like in the other Scandinavian lines? If so, 4. ... e5 is pretty worthless, if not you really can play it.
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White:
- Ruy Lopez
- Sicilian Defense: Chekhover variation, Rossolimo variation, Delayed Alapin variation
- French Defense: Bogo-Winawer variation, Classical variation 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7
- Pirc Defense: Byrne variation
Black:
- Ruy Lopez: Modern Steinitz variation
- Two Knights Defense: Fritz variation, Ulvestadt variation
- King's Gambit: Falkbeer Countergambit: Nimzowitsch variation
- Indian Defense: Nimzo-Indian Defense, Queen's Indian Defense
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05-14-2007, 11:34 PM
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#15 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Originally Posted by Perseus
Hmm, there is a question I would ask though. If black doesn't get his opening choice refuted, will he still be struggling for a draw like in the other Scandinavian lines? If so, 4. ... e5 is pretty worthless, if not you really can play it.
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That's why I started this thread, because my book barely covers it and I also don't know how well the other lines are for black.
But the book gives the line I wrote as the refutation, so apparently that's the best line for white, and the rest is better playable for black than that refutation.
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05-17-2007, 10:31 AM
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#16 (permalink)
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Posts: 45
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You can play it, it's just a matter of current fashion though it's probably not that good an idea to play ...e5 early on in the Center Counter since your opponent has a lot of development and you might always be lucky no matter what level you play it at. I don't think it has been completely refuted by one game - who knows, maybe next year a creative GM might roll it out once again!
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05-17-2007, 12:46 PM
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#17 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Originally Posted by Chess-o-Mattic
You can play it, it's just a matter of current fashion though it's probably not that good an idea to play ...e5 early on in the Center Counter since your opponent has a lot of development and you might always be lucky no matter what level you play it at. I don't think it has been completely refuted by one game - who knows, maybe next year a creative GM might roll it out once again!
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Only few Grandmasters have the Scandinavian in their repertoire these days... But who knows 
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05-17-2007, 04:32 PM
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#18 (permalink)
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The mere fact Anand used it stands testimony to it's strength.
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05-17-2007, 06:33 PM
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#19 (permalink)
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Posts: 889
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Originally Posted by Chess-o-Mattic
The mere fact Anand used it stands testimony to it's strength.
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Or it just stands testimony to Anand's strength... that even with an opening like the Scandinavian, he can draw or win games against strong players!
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05-17-2007, 09:24 PM
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#20 (permalink)
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Posts: 45
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Why would Anand choose such an opening if it wasn't strong in the first place?
Does he play the Basman too?
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