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08-14-2007, 05:37 PM
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#11 (permalink)
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Posts: 528
Thanked 35 Times in 34 Posts
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I gave examples to show that the line is playable.
In Fine's PCO he gave one column to the line with = (Analysis by Schlechter).
In the late 50's as mentioned in my post the Soviets players gave the line a try. See games by Taimonov in Chesslive.de.
One has to imagine, that Fischer on the Black side, or White side, he would have won anyway.
When White is playing 1.e4 and has a Ruy Lopez, and is thinking
Chigoran (Closed) game or a Tarrasch (Open) game and Black springs an unusual defense against White, White has to start eating up the clock to solve the problem.
Stats from Chessgames.com based on 378 games:
Number of games in database: 378
Years covered: 1845 to 2007
Overall record:
White wins 51.1%
Black wins 25.9%
Draws 23.0%
Last edited by Malbase : 08-14-2007 at 06:06 PM.
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08-14-2007, 06:14 PM
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#12 (permalink)
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Posts: 473
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
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Originally Posted by pnerd
thanks to everybody for all the help. further help is definitely welcome.
Malbase, among the games you mentioned, white won in only one game. is that because of poor play or a weakness of the variation used.
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The lines that arise from this move order are no worse than the main line and may be better which is why white's best bet is to try to steer the game back into main lines. In his book On Modern Chess Part One: Revolution in the 70s Kasparov gives these lines (The Archangelesk specifically which black can transpose to quite easily with this move order by adding in Nf6 and 0-0 for white) his seal of approval and indicates that white has not been able to show any advantage. Kasparov gives 7.Ng5? d5 8.ed5 Nd4). Ng5 looks like a natural move to exploit black's play but it is just bad.
This move order as mentioned previously is one way for black to avoid having to deal with deferred exchange variations which reduces the necessity of preparing those lines. An added plus is that an inexperienced white player will often waste precious time trying to decide how to punish black over the board for his non-standard play. Steve Giddins, in his book "How to Build Your Chess Opening Repetoire" talks about how you can use such move order finesses to avoid having to play lines that you don't like in certain openings. "Paying careful attention to move-orders and transpositional tricks is an essential part of building a successful opening repetoire... By intelligent use of move-orders, one can often avoid particularly dangerous variations and restrict the opponent's choice of lines."
Crash
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08-14-2007, 07:25 PM
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#13 (permalink)
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Posts: 473
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
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Originally Posted by Ronaldinho
In the Ruy, by playing ...b5 right away black avoids the delayed exchange variation. However, he's now two moves from castling and the bishop is targeting f7.
That opens up a new possibility for white: playing it as a two knights: 5.Bb3 Nf6 6.Ng5!? d5 7.ed Nd4. Or even 6.d4 ed 7.e5.
There's also the thematic 5.0-0 and 6.a4, where you're turning the b-pawn in a weakness earlier. This may transpose, and it certainly limits black's choices (eg, he can't now play 5.0-0 Bc5 and play the underrated Moller defense without b5 becoming a critical weakness).
The ultimate evaluation of these positions is beyond my abilities. It's not clear that any of them are worse for black than the deferred exchange variation (which is many popular among weaker players for it's surprise value) but they're interesting attempts to mix up the position.
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Kasporov seems to think that black is equal. He said that he spent a whole day analysing these variations in the 1988 USSR Championship while preparing for Malanyuk and after a day without being able to uncover any concrete advantage he played 1.d4 to avoid the whole thing.
Kasparov also says (by transposition) after 6.0-0 Bc5 "I myself have analysed the 6...Bc5 variation a great deal, and I can say that Black's possibilities here are far from exhausted." (p 263 Garry Kasparov on Modern Chess: Revolution in the 70s).
Crash
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08-14-2007, 09:43 PM
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#14 (permalink)
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Posts: 586
Thanked 55 Times in 53 Posts
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Originally Posted by Crash
Kasparov also says (by transposition) after 6.0-0 Bc5 "I myself have analysed the 6...Bc5 variation a great deal, and I can say that Black's possibilities here are far from exhausted." (p 263 Garry Kasparov on Modern Chess: Revolution in the 70s).
Crash
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Yeah. I have some very specific concerns about some of the lines which combine ...Bc5 with an early ...b5. It seems that b5 can become a pretty big weakness.
Currently, i avoid this by playing the open variation, anyway. But when I play ...Bc5 in the Ruy (which I think is an excellent choice for most class players - better than Be7 by far in terms of practical results) I do so after playing ...a6 but not ...b5. (eg, I'm playing a Moller defense, not a New Arcarngel) although I may push ...b5 once the white QN has moved.
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08-14-2007, 10:58 PM
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#15 (permalink)
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Posts: 473
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
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Originally Posted by Ronaldinho
Yeah. I have some very specific concerns about some of the lines which combine ...Bc5 with an early ...b5. It seems that b5 can become a pretty big weakness.
Currently, i avoid this by playing the open variation, anyway. But when I play ...Bc5 in the Ruy (which I think is an excellent choice for most class players - better than Be7 by far in terms of practical results) I do so after playing ...a6 but not ...b5. (eg, I'm playing a Moller defense, not a New Arcarngel) although I may push ...b5 once the white QN has moved.
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I have a lot of catching up to do on the decade of games that I missed in all of my openings.
Crash
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08-19-2007, 04:44 PM
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#16 (permalink)
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Posts: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
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i like the posts.. quite an eye opener.. thanx guys
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08-20-2007, 02:35 AM
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#17 (permalink)
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Posts: 473
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
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Originally Posted by Malbase
I gave examples to show that the line is playable.
In Fine's PCO he gave one column to the line with = (Analysis by Schlechter).
In the late 50's as mentioned in my post the Soviets players gave the line a try. See games by Taimonov in Chesslive.de.
One has to imagine, that Fischer on the Black side, or White side, he would have won anyway.
When White is playing 1.e4 and has a Ruy Lopez, and is thinking
Chigoran (Closed) game or a Tarrasch (Open) game and Black springs an unusual defense against White, White has to start eating up the clock to solve the problem.
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In this case, I don't think that the problem can be solved over the board except maybe by a supergrandmaster. Kasparov and his second were not able to do it in a day of analysis.
Originally Posted by Malbase
Stats from Chessgames.com based on 378 games:
Number of games in database: 378
Years covered: 1845 to 2007
Overall record:
White wins 51.1%
Black wins 25.9%
Draws 23.0%
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Nunn and other grandmasters caution against relying on statistics to evaluate opening lines unless you look carefully at what was actually played in each individual game. Nunn cites the example of a line which might have been played for years with the consensus of grandmaster opinion being that White stands well, with years of results to support that view. Suddenly a game is played which overturns that assessment and Black wins by force. Because of the way that theory propagates with the internet everyone stops playing the line as White. Statistics will still show that the line is favourable to White although it is refuted.
Crash
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08-20-2007, 10:46 AM
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#18 (permalink)
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Posts: 473
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
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Originally Posted by Crash
After 5.Nxe5 it seems to me that black has worse problems than he usually does in an Evans gambit and he isn't even up a pawn as compensation! Black has to do something about the threat 6.Bxf7+ or 6.Nxf7 with a fork on the rook and queen. Black also has to be careful as a defensive move like 5...Nh6 doesn't work because of the check on h5 with the queen at the end of the trades on f7 picking up the bishop on c5 and attacking the knight on b4.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Nxb4 5.Nxe5 Nh6 6.Nxf7
( 6.c3 Nc6 7.Nxf7 Nxf7 8.Bxf7+ Kxf7 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qxc5 )
6...Nxf7 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qxc5
Crash
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It has been brought to my attention that taking the e-pawn is answered by 5... Qf6 when it appears that White is going to pay for his over-exuberance. I plead rust.
White's best choice may be to just transpose back into regular lines with 5.c3 Nc6 6.0-0 or (6.d4).
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Nxb4 5.Nxe5 Qf6 6.Bxf7+ Kf8 7.Qh5 Qxf2+
( 7...Nxc2+ 8.Kd1 Nxa1 9.Bb2 )
8.Kd1 Qxg2 9.Bxg8 Qxh1+ 10.Ke2 Qg2+ 11.Ke1 Qf2+ 12.Kd1 Qf1# )
6...Qxa1 7.c3 )
5...Nc6 6.O-O *
Sorry about that.
Crash
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